American needs help with his PE 2020!

dbxdx5 · 28. Mai 2011

Hello,
I live in New Jersey in the U.S. I recently purchased a Perpetuum Ebner 2020, but there aren't many resources on American websites to help answer my questions. I was so happy to find this site!!! I ordered the service manual from eBay, so that will help when it arrives. But I hope someone on this site understands English so that you can share some of your knowledge with me. My first question: I think I should lubricate the gear that meshes with the turntable platter, but I don't know what kind of grease to use. Any recommendations? Also, the turntable makes a noise when the platter is spinning, which sounds like it's either coming from the platter teeth and the gear or from the idler wheel.

Danke.

Matt

defektO · 28. Mai 2011

hello matt,

my english is not so very good, but i hope it will be good enough :pinch:

here is something to read for you:

http://perpetuum-ebner.pytalhost.com/2020s/

http://perpetuum-ebner.pytalhost.com/2020/

...it´s the user manual and the service manual.

further information will come soon - it´s very late in germany.

greetz henner

dbxdx5 · 28. Mai 2011

Thank you Greetz. I appreciate you sending the links. Unfortunately, I can't understand enough German to use the service manual, but I have an English copy coming in the mail. And I was lucky that the PE 2020 came with the user manual--in English! : ) I look forward to more information/advice.

Matt

defektO · 28. Mai 2011

hello matt,

do you have a 2020 or a 2020 L?

to find out, where the noise comes from, you have to take the chassis out of the case and put it on two stacks of books - so you can watch the mechanical system at work.

then you have to make some tests...

...take the platter of and start the motor. if you can not hear the noise it comes not from the motor - then press cautious the idler wheel to the pulley and you can listen, if the noise comes from it...

...put the platter back and look if the noise its there, when you turn it by hand.

the mechanical automatic system of the 2020 has allways the problem, that the grease becomes some kind of glue over the years. i think the very first thing you have to do, ist to disassemble, clean and lubricate it. you can use thin grease or oil for sewing machines or i often use grease/oil for scale modelling cars.

make some fotos an put them in here - this will help solving the problems.

greetz henner

Bepone · 28. Mai 2011

Hello Matt,

welcome to the Dual-Board!

To the tips of Henner there isn't more to say at the moment.
But Henner had startet a very nice thread to the PE 2020L, that you can find here: http://dual-board.de/index.php…&threadID=27062&pageNo=1&
(Hope it's OK, Henner, to link it)

This thread shows al lot of the PE's mechanic and the pictures could be very helpful. Take some time and have a look on them, the text is in German, of course.

Greetings
Benjamin

dbxdx5 · 28. Mai 2011

Thank you Benjamin and Henner.

It's a 2020, not a 2020L. What are the differences?

I was able to observe the mechanics a little bit last night. At this point, I'm 90 percent certain that the noise is coming from the motor--everything else is pretty silent during operation. Is there some way to lubricate the bearings in the motor? I have special lube that's designed for the sintered bearings in the capstan motor of my Otari reel to reel player, but I believe that it isn't recommended for ball bearings.

I'll still take the platter off and listen for noise from the motor and then the idler just to confirm.

Best.
Matt

analogi67 · 28. Mai 2011

Dear Matt,

welcome to this board. First of all I need to say that I'm not very familiar with 1960/1970s idler-wheel drives, either from Dual or PE or any other manufactures.

Obviously the collected informations concerning PE from our the very busy board member 'wegavision' are written in German.

The University of Munich runs a pretty good online translator which you can found here: http://dict.leo.org . It may help to translate some parts of the manuals or other sites e.g. babelfish.altavista.com or google.

Regarding your question of lubrification please refer to the paragraphs called "schmieranweisung", for the above mentioned PE2020 service manual http://perpetuum-ebner.pytalhost.com/2020s/ you'll find a description in pics 17 and 18 (Fett ~ .. / Öl = oil) etc.

Probably you may find help or English manuals e.g. on http://www.dual-reference.com/Contacts/SCmain.html (which is are pretty good site in the US) or others like http://www.theanalogdept.com/. A lot of Dual/Thorens/Garrad/ELAC/.. informations were already compiled. Those guys may know, if somewhere in the US manuals, spare parts etc. can be obtained and they may know too how to solve a problem with a PE due some similarities between 1960/1970s idler-whell drive players.

If not I'm sure that you'll receicve help from "our" board members. There are some enthusiastic PE collectors and great contributors to this board.

Good luck & regards,

Wolfgang

dbxdx5 · 28. Mai 2011

Thanks so much Wolfgang. I did check the parts of the manual that refer to lubrication, however, they specify lubricants that are no longer available, which is why I was asking about other options. The manual isn't clear about how exactly to go about lubricating the motor either; with the capstan motor on my Otari reel to reel player, you just need to apply a few drop on a felt pad that encircles the opening to the motor so that the oil can migrate inside. Hopefully, some of the kind and knowledgeable members on here can help me out.

Matt

defektO · 29. Mai 2011

hello,

Zitat von dbxdx5

lubricating the motor

+

Zitat von dbxdx5

I have special lube that's designed for the sintered bearings

=

greetz henner

dbxdx5 · 30. Mai 2011

Danke Henner. I think I successfully lubed the motor bearings. I also started putting new grease on the various linkages below. Unfortunately, I believe I may have created a problem. The tonearm doesn't move when I move the lever to Start. And when I use the manual mode, I can lower the tonearm to the record, but it will only play for a moment before it lifts up and starts to move back to the rest, though it doesn't even move all the way to the rest. I think it might have something to do with the sensing lever or the feeler pin, but I'm not sure. Any ideas?

Danke Henner. Ich glaube, ich erfolgreich lubed die Motorlager. Ich habe
auch begonnen, neue Fett auf den verschiedenen Verbindungen unten.
Leider glaube ich ein Problem geschaffen haben. Der Tonarm bewegt sich
nicht, wenn ich den Hebel, um Start zu bewegen. Und wenn ich den
manuellen Modus verwenden, kann ich den Tonarm auf die Platte senken,
aber es wird nur für einen Moment zu spielen, bevor er abhebt und
beginnt sich zu bewegen zurück, den Rest, obwohl es nicht einmal bewegt
bis hin zu den Ruhe. Ich denke, es könnte etwas mit dem Fühlhebel oder
der Taststift zu tun haben, aber ich bin mir nicht sicher. Irgendwelche
Ideen?

defektO · 30. Mai 2011

hello matt,

i don´t think, you created a new problem

in between the "transportpimpel" :

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

...has left his life, like it allways does. the original part is made of rubber, wich is the best material - because of the friktion you need to move the arm.
but rubber is not easy to put in a nice shape, so i made a replacement part of nylon. it works too, but you should better use rubber, if you got a piece that fits.
the friction area has to be clean and it works not with oil or grease on it!

this part of the automatic:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

is allway very sticky from the old grease. you have to disassemble it to get it clean enough.

it would be very helpful, if you have some pictures for us - finding the problem is a bit difficult over the long distance

greetz henner

...aaand the automatic works only, if the axle in middle of the platter is in her place and some vinyl is on it...

dbxdx5 · 31. Mai 2011

I think you're right: My "transportpimpel" doesn't look like yours. It's hard to tell in this photo, but there's nothing on the top part:

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Here's another view:

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Is there any way I could pay you to fabricate a nylon replacement? I'm not sure how I could fabricate a rubber replacement without knowing the exact dimensions.

And here's a photo of the part of the automatic you mentioned. I had begun to try and clean it from the outside:

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I don't think I'm confident enough to disassemble this. . . .

Best,

Matt

defektO · 31. Mai 2011

hello,

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

for "first aid" vou can put this:

...in there - it will work too you can make the plastik surface a bit rough by using sandpaper, to get more friktion...

if you don´t want to disassamble the part on the other photo, you can use very thin oil from the outside and try to move the levers a bit up and down on the axle - if you try this long enough, it will work too.

but the levers have to move very, very easily - or the automatic will not work...

greetz henner

dbxdx5 · 31. Mai 2011

Thank you so much! I think I can find one of those "first aid" tacks.

This may seem like a dumb question, but now that I've taken the turntable out of the plinth (the edges are resting on two stacks of books), can I turn it upside down (still with the edges on the books) to make it easier to work on? Or will having the tonearm etc., hanging upside down hurt it somehow?

Best,
Matt

Bepone · 31. Mai 2011

Hello Matt,

you can lock the tonearm and turn your PE upside down.

Be careful not to hit the tonearm with something.

@Henner:
Du machst das wirklich gut, nur weiter so!
(Habe leider nicht viel Zeit in der Woche)

Gruß
Benjamin

defektO · 31. Mai 2011

hallo benjamin,

Zitat von Bepone

Du machst das wirklich gut, nur weiter so!

danke mann, aber mein englisch war nie gut und hat über die jahre offensichtlich noch gelitten...

...bin mal gespannt, ob ich´s dem lieben matt erklärt bekomme, wie man den liftpimpel wechselt - kann ja nicht mehr lange dauern

es macht aber spass zu sehen, daß dreher unserer schwarzwälder lieblingsmarke so weit gereist sind und auch dort heute noch mit interesse gewürdigt werden!

@ matt:

tis is how i work on my turntables / chassis:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

all the service, that is needed, to make a 2020 work perfektly, takes some time (it´s not done in a few hours). i suggest you build somthing similar, to avoid damages caused by a crushing down chassis...

grüssle henner

analogi67 · 1. Juni 2011

Zitat von dbxdx5

Thanks so much Wolfgang... ; with the capstan motor on my Otari reel to reel player, Matt

Dear Matt, thank you. I'm glad to give some support and as I see cross the thread it's seems pretty good.

If you once need some help or spare parts for your reel to reel recorder I add some links for information:

On http://forum2.tonbandinfo.com you'll find informations mainly for Studer/Revox but also other studio and consumer tape recorders e.g. Telefunken, Denon, Otari etc. Otari still runs a service department as well as Teac/Tascam, Studer/Revor or some others (Nagra, Stellavox, ASC, Tandberg etc.)

If you need empty reels (similary to Revox, BASF/EMTEC design, 7" up to 11,1" metal reels and some plastic reels) , magnetic tapes, splicing tapes, colored leader tapes or any kind of accessories please look on Franks page ( http://www.darklab-magnetics.de/darklab_webshop/index.htm ) . Frank sells a lot of things to the US and Japan and he offer a rather quick delivery.

Frank and others are currently manufactures for parts which are no longer in stock and the colleagues of the "Forum2" will give some hints. Currently I have 2 reel to reel recorders (Studer & Revox) and more Thorens Drives than Dual Players.

Regards,

Wolfgang

PS/
EDIT:

Dear Matt,

for general information, see also PE in Amerika

Wolfgang

dbxdx5 · 1. Juni 2011

Thanks Wolfgang. These looks like good reel-to-reel resources. Which Studer and Revox R2Rs do you have? My Otari is the MX 5050 - BII.

@ Benjamin, Henner: So I used a tack to replace the broken part. We'll see how well it works once I'm finished cleaning the various lube points with isopropyl alcohol and then relubing with Lubriplate (white lithium grease). In the meantime, I have a few other questions I'm hoping you can answer.

Do either of you know where I can get one of the plastic alignment gauges used to set up the cartridge in the headshell?

What cartridge/stylus combinations are you using? Right now mine has a Stanton 500 cartridge with a D5100E for LPs and 45s and a D5120EJ for 78s.

Best,

Matt

Bepone · 2. Juni 2011

Hi Matt,

the original plastic gauge is difficult to get, i guess.
I haven't one and don't know where to get it (maybe here in the "Marktplatz").

Do you know how to set up the cartridge with a paper template ("Protractor"?)?
There are different templates you can download and print (or buy, of course), for example DIN or IEC.
For example, you can get them here (i don't know a page in english).

Henner had made a computation of the original zero-points of the PE-Tonearm. They are 65,3mm and 123,5mm from the platter axis.
You can read it in the linked thread of Henner, answer no. 95 and further.

In my PE, there is the original Shure M75. Or a Empire 1080LT (T4P-System with 1/2'' adaptor).

Greetings
Benjamin

analogi67 · 2. Juni 2011

Zitat von dbxdx5

Thanks Wolfgang. These looks like good reel-to-reel resources. Which Studer and Revox R2Rs do you have? My Otari is the MX 5050 - BII.

Dear Matt,

BX5050 is very nice tape recorder. Some guys in the "Forum2" and neighboring fora uses Otari maschines (http://www.tonbandinfo.com is the common umbrella site).

My R2Rs are a Studer A810 (3 3/4 up to 30ips, NAB/CCIR) and a semi-profesional ReVox PR99 (7 1/2 & 15 ips, NAB) both with standard heads. Some pics are on the gallery http://galerie.magnetofon.de/index.php?cat=10022 (mainly in the folder "Tonbandmaschinen"). Few days ago I got a trolley and a cabinet for the PR99 (http://www.reeltoreel.de/Revox/PR99-Z.htm -> Nos 2+3). Sold were some semi-professional and consumer tape recorders e.g. AKAI GX 635 or ASC 5002.

B.R.

Wolfgang

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