A couple of Dual 1211 questions

Hello everyone. I hope it's OK to write in English here; I apologize for not knowing any German.

The following are two question I posted on another board. I was told to post them here as well. I hope you will be able to help me out.

1) I've been playing around for a few days with a Dual changer I was given, a 1211, and had a few questions which I hope you'll be able to help me with.

Before I go on, YES I do realize it's not a 'good' turntable, but I've always wanted to restore a changer to play records for fun.

I've been sent a Service Manual which has been of help in, for example, determining that some previous owner had jacked the arm lift height all the way up-- it just about clocked one on the chin when engaged, and furthermore was causing some bad friction in the left-right plane.

Once that was set properly again, the arm started moving much more freely; still however it's lacking that last bit of freedom, and I was wondering whether it would be possible/easy/worth it to clean and/or lubricate the horizontal pillar bearings. The manual doesn't really go into any detail on that.

The other question is related to the arm height setting (I could post a picture but it won't be clear at all); it's a set-screw just below the left-side vertical bearing locking nut and screw.

I've looked at it from up close with a flashlight and can't picture how the mechanism works, so I refrained from fiddling with it in case it could cause the whole arm pillar to plummet down or something (hardly unusual...)

I was wondering whether any of you knows how that particular adjustment works and whether it could be in any way related to the slight stiction I seem to be noticing in the horz. plane.

[that was one question, now a later one]

I've just taken five minutes to clean the rim of the idler wheel, inner rim of the platter and the motor shaft. I cleaned the idler wheel with watered-down rubbing alcohol on a slightly raspy paper towel and the motor shaft and platter rim with straight alcohol and more of the same kitchen towels.

The changing mechanism worked just fine before cleaning, but I thought I'd go over the idler/shaft/platter anyway since it's like Changer Maintenance 101 and have never made things worse by doing it.

However now the change cycle has become very sluggish with the platter almost stalling during it, and taking a good few seconds to start turning (when starting the turntable in auto mode).

Speed looks stable on a strobe disc but it does seem to take a few seconds to stabilize, and the platter doesn't have much torque either (not sure whether it's supposed to, didn't check before cleaning.)

So overall this doesn't make much sense. Could it be that whatever it was that was making the idler dirty was also 'holding everything together'?!? I did get a fair amount of gunk on the paper towels, specially from the idler.

[end of cut-and-paste]

So those are the two. I copied and pasted them rather than typing them in again. I would truly appreciate any help/suggestions/ideas/advice/etc. regarding either of the two issues.

Thank you so very much in advance.

Matthias, thank you kindly for your answer.

I ended up going for the lubrication job even before reading your answer-- I just got fed up and cleaned up and re-oiled the platter bearing, idler wheel and even the motor. I had never opened a motor to re-lube it so even if this particular changer gets nowhere I will have learned from it. Plus it does seem to run better now, the mechanism doesn't stall as much during the change cycles, even if it's still a little noisy (I don't expect to get it completely silent).

I will look at the friction pad under the tonearm, thank you so very much for that as well.

Regards,

Damián

Zitat

Original von Clausewitz
Hi Damian! I am the very same Clausewitz on the other board (vinyl engine) that advised you to ask your questions on this board as well.

I guess you wrote that you have cleaned the rim and idler wheel with alcohol, not oiled them. Is that right?

LOL, yes, thanks for pointing that out. I meant that I cleaned the rubber part with alcohol and oiled the hub on which it rides, not the other way around :D.

Zitat

Original von holstenI just only took a short look on what you wrote and as my english isn't that any more, here's what instantly came to my mind:
Prob 1: The bearings of the tonearm don't get lubed at all. I don't know the 1211 (in terms of i-have-none) but you can adjust the play of the bearings on any dual. If you have an english service manual, look for the friction guide under the tonearm. It is responsible for the movement of the arm in automatic mode and often causes problems with free horizontal arm movement, then check the pickup cables. They have to be long enough in the arm base not to stop the arm at some point.

Matthias,

Could you please help me locate this 'friction pad' thing? I've looked at my manual and it seems to be missing a page or two from the end, where the parts list is.

Can you find in on that picture?

BTW, do you, or does anyone, know how adjustment #48 works? I don't want to touch it because I'm afraid I could make things worse, but it's apparently an arm height set-screw. I wouldn't mind being able to lower the arm a bit to get it parallel to the platter (as opposed to adding an extra mat or two).

Thanks again.

Zitat

Original von Clausewitz

I'm not sure if that causes your problem, but Matthias mentions the world-wide-famous steuerpimpel, as far as I understand. In the English manuals, it is referred to as a guide, and in the original German manuals, it is called steuerpimpel.

Aydin,

Thanks for clearing that up. But I'm not sure that's the problem here-- I've read a bit about this 'steuerpimpel' thing, I thought it was related to the arm not moving sideways in auto mode?

My problem is more of a general one, the arm pillar/turret (left-right movement) feels a bit stiffer than I'd like it to. The vertical bearings, on the other hand, are very smooth and sensitive so clearly Dual put some care into that even on their cheapest low-end models.

Zitat

Original von 3rd_Ear
The horizontal bearing of the 1211 tonearm is quite a simple ball bearing, so don't expect it to be as friction-free as the better models.

Thanks, Dirk.

Two questions, though, then:

1) can it at least be cleaned up and oiled or otherwise maintained?

2) should I expect this 'cruder' bearing design to be a problem with, say, a Stanton 500 tracking at >3 grams or some other such lo-co cartridge at a high-ish force?

Thanks!

Thanks again, Dirk.

I thought I would post a picture of a little something I did to the arm (which can be removed at any time) even if it's a little embarrassing:

The macro picture is certainly not helping any! But I do feel like it's helped. At first I mostly did it so I'd be able to balance a heavier MM cart (as opposed to the very light CDS 650 that comes with the unit), though the extra load on the bearings could actually be beneficial.

It's even decoupled, if you look close... really high-end! I guesstimated the amount of needed weight using an MM cartridge. It doesn't actually look too massive (and probably isn't, I don't have anything to weigh it with) but its a bit heavier than it needs to be (one nut = too little, too nuts = a tiny bit more than needed, but I couldn't saw a nut in half, now could I?). Which probably means that the arm is just really really light.

Anyway, I thought I'd post it for kicks :P. Thoughts? (Yes I do know I need to brush the dust off. I'll do it soon! I can't promise I'll get a life, though...)

Edited: I still wouldn't mind if you posted any thoughts you may've come up with regarding the friction issue.

Well, I think I've managed to lower arm friction a tiny bit further.

I took a close look at what the arm was/is connected to under the hood, and found that the main linkage that is at all times connected to the arm is the auto-return trip lever (I don't know what it's called-- the long, thin metal bar under the platter that rolls on a tiny steel ball.) The only point of contact between this lever (and hence the arm) and anything fixed that could exert some sort of resistance seems to be the steel ball.

So, with that in mind, I put the tiniest drop of oil on the steel ball (tiny as in 'picked it up using the tip of a toothpick.) I then moved the arm from its rest to the center and back a few times, gently of course.

Then I 'zeroed' the arm and blew on the headshell from one side, which is what I usually do to determine how smooth/sensitive the pivot is. And what do you know, it readily floated inwards. I did have to blow a tad more strongly than I usually do with newer/better arms, but it's definitely improved, even to the point that I'd feel safe playing a good number of my records with it.

Even before this last improvement, I was looking at the arm playing a record with an MM cartridge mounted, a rather high-compliance cart in fact, one which I will NOT use with this turntable, and noticed that the cantilever deflected towards the OUTside.

Which probably means that even then the arm's friction was at an acceptable amount, because if the stylus/cantilever were having trouble 'pushing' the arm inwards, wouldn't it deflect towards the INside (ie. record 'pulling' the cantilever inwards but unable to pull the arm along with it)? What do you all think?

So I thought I'd post back in case anyone faces a similar issue in the future, even though the thread seems to have died.

Thanks to everyone who helped.

Edit: btw, I could not find a 'steuerpimpel' on this turntable, would that be right?